One hot, lazy Saturday morning, Kevin and I were lying in bed, discussing philosophy, science and the meaning of life, as so many couple do moments after waking up, and it suddenly occurred to me how often Kevin’s atheism becomes an awkward, uncomfortable, can-we-talk-about this issue with so many visitors and friends. How it’s absolutely fine for me to be proud and bold about my Christianity, but that it is a bit of a ‘shameful’ thing that he has lost his faith. In the worst case, people view atheists as lesser people, not quite on par with the rest of us believing folk. But even in the best case, most Christians see his journey out of faith as significantly strange and threatening. I have yet to meet a person who speaks comfortably about the whole thing to both of us together or either of us apart. It’s like being married to an alcoholic or a drug addict – we have this ‘secret in our cupboard’, this white elephant in the room, that everyone feels we need to skirt around.
We’re not quite sure quite how to get around this. One thing we do is to try to be as comfortable about it ourselves, when conversing with others. Fairly early on after meeting a new person, when talking about life partners and churches (both topics seem to come up quickly on first meetings), I’ll make a light reference to the fact that Kevin doesn’t go to church because he isn’t a Christian. It’s happened more than once that at this point the topic is quickly changed, with a slight moment of embarrassment. When we’re together, with a group of friends, I sometimes find myself joking about it or teasing Kevin about his lack of belief for the intentional purpose of seeing reactions (bad of me, I know).
Fact is, I’m crazy about my atheist husband! I love and deeply respect his journey and all the many things he is seeking and finding. I respect so much his integrity, his way of thinking, and his careful and deliberate way of forming ideas. Similarly, he has a deep respect for my faith and would do nothing to hurt or undermine it. We both love the endless conversations we can have around our beliefs, which give us such a richness of insight into paradigms different from our own.
We invite the people around us to explore their own feelings of discomfort and join us in a journey of meeting in the borderlands – that space between belief and unbelief. Come to terms with all the threatening, defensive-aggressive things you feel because of our differences of belief, and engage with us as two people on a journey. Talk about the white elephant. We welcome it, and with it, a glimpse into your unique journey!
28 comments:
Hi,
My husband went through fairly long period of being thoroughly disenchanted with Christianity, while I, at the same time grew in faith. This did not really cause a problem with how we related to other people or how they related to us, however it did have a significant impact on our relationship in 2 areas. Firstly, in how we handled and dealt with our 3 children. The message was no long consistent. We were no longer a united front. That was hard for me to deal with. Secondly, we approached crises in very different ways. The greater the crisis, be it financial, emotional, marital, health or whatever, the more the differences in our fundemental approaches to life showed. It is in these foundations of family life that outworking of faith (or lack of it) takes on real, concrete ramifications that go beyond the intellectual and philisophical. It was not that I was right and he was wrong.. he was always a good husband and dad, but that God, who had always been central in our lives and family was now a thorny issue... anothers story for another day!
One of the things that struck me when I first came acorss the SA Blog Top Spots web sites was that there were only two blogs listed in the "Religion" category, and both were by ex-Christians talking about Christianity.
That struck me as rather strange, in some ways. You don't find web sites by ex-golfers discussing golf and why one shouldn't play it. People usually talk about (or blog about) things that they are interested in.
I suppose, however, in your case, it can't be avoided!
Hi Cori - I did read Kevin's blog every now and then and I do respect his views and I'm sure he is a very nice guy and a good husband; but I do feel he is trying to convince others that his atheistic views are right and that theistic views are wrong. Of course Christians are also trying to convince non-believers and as long as we all do this in a respectful way, there's nothing wrong with it. Is Kevin not always trying to convince you or the other way around? The problem is that you can expect 'I used to believe that too' answers from ex-Christians; so I can understand why Christians find it difficult to discuss faith issues with people who stopped believing in God. I believe God still believes in Kevin - whether he likes that or not. As a Christian it is also very hard for me to understand how anybody could leave the faith. I have doubts and questions too - but I just don't see how they could ever cause me to leave God. It must be difficult for both of you sometimes, but I think that it is great that both of you show so much love and respect for each other. I can imagine that difficult emotional experiences can drive somebody away from God for some time, but in my case the difficult situations always brought me closer to God - so it's hard for me to understand Kevin's position.
Very interesting perspective. I agree that Christians can quickly condemn a person without faith when in fact they should continue to love others for Christ's sake. In a predominately atheist/agnostic enivronment it is the Christian who can easily be persecuted by the status quo. It would be a blessing if people would put aside their agendas and actually, genuinely love one another. God bless.
www.morefire.wordpress.com
I am an exchristian. I spent 25 years as a bible believer. My girlfriend is a Christian. We have been together for more than two years. She goes to church every Sunday. As far as I know, she has not told anyone that I am an atheist. I think she is, perhaps mildly ashamed that she let herself fall in love with one. I used to go to church with her just about every Sunday. I sat next to her one day and listened to her minister warn all the members against getting involved, romantically, with unbelievers. Made me so angry I could of spit...but I didn't. I pretty much stopped going after that. As far as I know, she has not told any of her family,(she is 47, I am 49) of my "spiritual condition". I think, when anyone asks why I was not there on Sunday, she just tells them that I spent some time with my sons.
This is why I think Christianity is divisive. Many Christians of differing denominations can not fellowship with each other, and us non believers are pretty much left out all together. As an atheist, I just think Christians are mistaken, but many of them will look at me as hell-bound. Big difference in perspectives.
Randy
Having your spouse poke fun at your lack of belief is something that I would not tolerate and even if you think that you are being funny think about him making light of your faith publicly and think about how it would affect you.
Randy:
The fact is that Christianity is meant to be divisive (Matthew 10:21).
It's this bigoted divisiveness that is caustic to the world and non-Christians that reside in it.
I'd just like to respond to what Steve said.
Golfers don't fly themselves into buildings killing thousands because other people have a different golfing technique.
Religion is a very big part of the world we live in and those of us who can see the harm that religion does to the world have every right to explain to people our way of thinking.
I think the attitude you displayed that Atheists shouldn't care about religion is unfair, and you should respect their expression of thoughts.
I wish you a good day.
My wife and I went through what you and your husband are going through. If you love each other, it will work out. In our case, the difference in perspectives dissolved as one of us began to see the reasons for the others' position; no coercing was necessary, or could've worked. You may find your situation the same -- that over time, you either meet in the middle, or one of you moves towards the other.
No matter what, though, keep in mind that issues of faith are just that -- abstracta in our head, while people are real, and we need them.
I found your site through your husband's. Just a quick question: If you believe your husband is going to spend eternity in the torment of hell, do you think it will be possible to be trully happy in heaven knowing your husband's fate?
Hi Cori,
I think this can be a very difficult thing, and truely as you have discribed it: "The elephant in the room." Something that stays in the back of both your heads and that you want to be open to the world about, without them condemning you and especially without shame.
I think a big problem with people not believing in Christ as their Saviour is exactly the Christians! I am a Christian myself, but am known to have said that I don't like christians and I don't like reverends and that I work on a guilty untill proven innocent system as far as they are concerned :-)
I think the problem with most christians as we know them is that they aren't living as what is expected from them, we are more cautious of the people than we are of God! God doesn't need us to defend Him, that He can do himself - without our help, I think in anycase that we'll only make a mess of things. What we can do is to just live as if God is coming to fetch us the next moment - almost like the cliched What Would Jesus Do type of thing. We can't do more than that because it's only in the Holy Spirit's power to convince other people.
http://faithjourneywithgod.wordpress.com
Interesting post. It's strange how this situation seems to occur as a result of some religions and not others. I was brought up a fundamentalist Christian, and changed my mind about my beliefs during my late teens. I strongly recall my childhood friends and I discussing how we could never marry anyone who wasn't a Christian, and how taboo the whole subject was. It must be very strange to actually be in that situation with that sort of stigma still around in the Church.
My partner and I have been together for seven years. Over that time, he's become a Buddhist and I've gradually become more and more agnostic, at least as far as God is concerned. But this diversity in our beliefs and philosophies only adds to our relationship. It doesn't even cross our minds to have anything but respect for each other's beliefs. But then, neither of us believes in the coercive concept of eternal damnation. Do religions such as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and the like have more of a problem with interfaith relationships because of a core belief that terrible things await those who don't share their religions? Or is it something else entirely that creates these problems?
I think I feel a song coming on...I'll call it, "White elephants and atheists!" I hope I'm not one of those awkward white elephant people, Cori! (Maybe it's because I haven't taken you up on your dinner offer yet...still on?!)
I think one reason Christians would condemn you is the "do not be unequally yoked" verse. How can you be married to a non-Christian?! You can't pray together and God isn't directing your lives together!! However, you both love each other and I've observed the respect you have for each other. I wonder if that's not the spirit behind the "unequally yoked" verse and if perhaps it may apply rather well to Christian couples who are "unequally yoked" due to a lack or respect or love for each other.
I've also tried to work this out in my (lack of!) dating life right now...and decided that I'm not restricting myself to Christians (for all the good that's done!). In fact, in many cases Christian women are...*sigh* going to get into trouble here!...undesirable. Perhaps you should put together a dating website where you hook up atheists, agnostics, christians, and those who support the Auzzies!
Back to the verse thing - my conservative church upbringing told me that it was impossible for a christian/atheist marriage to work. And yet, here we have you guys. Hmmm...rethink time!
Thanks so much for all these thought provoking comments, which really provoked a lot of thoughts for me!
I'd be really interested to hear more of your story, Megan. I think a married couple that diverges faith paths on their journey after becoming married have quite a different experience than in our case, where we had diverted faith paths some time before marriage.
I think the most frightening thing in any intimate relationship is accepting that someone is different from you. I remember the pastor who married us telling me once that we always get so excited when we find someone is just like us! And then feel such frustration and dissapointment when they're actually not. He said that the true strength of a relationship is not trying to be the same, but celebrating the difference, the diversity.
I'm going to respond to some of the things written here in future posts. This would include an in-depth response to Paul (Panda), Randy and Pete (all in different posts, probably!).
I was a tiny little bit put out by the anonoymous comment left asking about how I feel about my husband going to hell. The assumption that I believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible and thus a literal understanding of hell is frustrating for me. It's incredibly frustrating always being put into a very little category of what it means to be Christian and having assumptions made about what my Christianity might look like. Perhaps this should become a post too!
Roger, we're holding thumbs for that dating life of yours (I'm doing a bit of behind the scenes work but I'm not sure about an official dating service!). And that supper invite is definitely still on (I'll tell you all about her)! We've also had quite a few discussions with various people about that 'equally yoked' verse. The same pastor mentioned above also felt that there are a lot of unequally yoked Christian couples around!
Hi Cori
I have so enjoyed reading your blog (and your husband's blog), as well as your numerous posts on emergentafrica. Will you be going to the Brian Maclaren camp? I'd love to chat to you there if you are:)
Linda
I'm sorry for the assumption that you believed in hell. I simply saw your husband mention it (hell) being used as control mechanism and assumed you believed in it just like the christians he mentioned.
Hi Cori,
Could you write about your idea of heaven and hell some time? If you don't believe in either of them, I'm very curious about your opinion.
My husband is an atheist and I think one of the hardest things is the idea that he won't be saved. But when I read the Bible I really think it tells about hell too, whether I like it or not...
Kind regards,
Liesbeth
This is a response to John, who said I was being unfair in comparing atheists blogging about being ex-Christians with ex-golfers blogging about being ex-golfers
Cori, I hope you won't mind, and that you won't think it is is misuse, to answer somebody else on your blog!
Of course John is quite right - the comparison is a little unfair. Changing one's religion or abandoning it is a far more serious personal paradigm shift than giving up golf (unless you are a very serious professional golfer, for whom golf is your whole life).
And of course people who take their religion seriously would have to agree. If you are a Christian (or a serious adherent of any other religion) it's generally a far deeper and more serious matter than abandoning golf in favour of bowls or stamp collecting.
My comment was mainly occasioned by my surprise when I first encountered the religion section of SA Top Blog Sites and found that all the blogs listed (all 2 of them) were ex-Christians blogging about being ex-Christians. Now there are a few more blogs there, nut not all that many.
Now, of course, we have Amatomu, which I think is a better guide to the South African blogosphere, even if it doesn't have a religion section. I'm not sure where one puts religious, or anti-religious blogs there -- under "life", perhaps.eaetqe
Thanks to anonymous for their generous apology!
Cori,
I appluad you and your husband. Now if a husband and wife can live in harmony on this issue why not the rest of us?
I read Kevin's blog, and I've sometimes checked yours. I confess that I actually found this entry through his blog and not yours. >.<; I hope it isn't too late to comment.
I guess my concerns about marrying a non-believer would be that exactly what's happening to Megan would be happening to me. I think that an atheist-Christian marriage works fine- until there are children involved. I wouldn't have an answer if my children were to ask, "Why doesn't daddy believe in God?" or "Is daddy going to hell?" Additionally, the more conservative the Christian, the more impossible the relationship. Even the fact of HAVING children would be difficult, as many a Christian doesn't believe in birth control, or abortion- things an atheist might not always engage in, but would probably condone.
A less-dealbreaking, but still serious subject would be before children or marriage. Premarital sex. Christians might see something wrong with this- whereas an atheist, probably is going to be more concerned with the sex being "safe." Sexual tension during dating could easily put strain on the relationship.
Then another less-dealbreaking but serious subject- the use of money. Some Christian women might perfer being housewives. In the meantime, they'd likely want to tithe money in reverence to their faith. I can imagine many an argument erupting over an atheist husband not desiring his "hard-earned money" to be funneled towards something he disbelieved (or perhaps even found harmful), especially since "you don't work anyway." The tables could be turned with a conservative Christian husband and atheist wife. The Christian husband might have certain assumptions about what a woman should do, which the atheist woman would absolutely NOT want to hear.
So there you have it- sex, finances, and children- all areas to be considered when in an interfaith relationship. All areas that could cause trouble.
But, like Kevin pointed out- you have a meeting place. You don't even believe in a literal representation of heaven and hell, and in the meantime, he's not the atheist "stereotype" so to speak who seems to see religion as the root of all evil. I don't see any reason why your marriage shouldn't work and you shouldn't do wonderful together. You both seem to see faiths as pretty equal, paying more attention to individual character than "right" and "wrong"ness.
But really, you're the exception rather than the rule. I've shared your thoughts on whether it's possible to be, "equally" as well as "unequally" yoked with an unbeliever, and since that verse was so vague, I sought to seek a personal conclusion to the issue. Although I don't believe in tithing, specifically, or that a Christian woman has no other choice but to be a housewife, I found the holes in the aforementioned areas, and decided that, dating nonChristians wasn't for me. For, why marry a nonChristian, no matter how "in" love I am with them, when in order for the marriage to work, one of us would have to change? I would either have to bend my own beliefs/convictions, or they would have to bend theirs. And marrying with the "secret desire" to convert my husband seemed hypocritical and wrong. If you love someone, shouldn't you be making sacrifices for them?
Also, when I marry- there's no turning back. Biblically, divorce is considered a sin (though there's fuzzy thinking on that, even for me). So I couldn't afford to make any mistakes. I'm the marriage skeptic. Seeing too many divorces made me all too keen about rushing on in the name of "being in love." I wanted to make sure that compatibility on a belief level was there as well.
Thanks, Gip-k, for your comment!
You really summed it up well - kids, finance, sex would probably be some of the major issues, although none are impossible to overcome. For example: neither of us were keen on sex before marriage, we keep our money separate and work out things from there, we've decided not to have kids. But some of those things would be insurmountable for some. I reckon you'd definitely need to get those things worked out before getting married.
I also reckon its not a good idea marrying someone 'just' because you're 'in love'. This is debatable and I know Kevin doesn't share my thoughts on this, but I had the very strong conviction that marrying Kevin was the 'right' thing to do. I would certainly not have married him unless I felt sure it was what God wanted. As I say, debatable - both those within the faith and outsie of it might question it, but it was certainly the place from out of which I acted.
A very influential book when I was contemplating marriage was 'The Sacred Marriage' by Gary Thomas where he discusses that marriage is not about being happy but about becoming holy - about interacting in such a way that we both become more than we are. This was definitely the starting point for Kevin and I, although we substituted the idea of 'adding value' for 'holiness'. Our marriage for us was (is) about adding value to our own, each other, and other people's lives.
Gary Thomas suggests that this happens most profoundly through the difficult times (he even considers the issue of an affair) and really changed my thinking around divorce. Divorce, as you say, really just isn't an option. And marriage is a choice, every day again.
Anyway, just some random thoughts inspired by your comment!
Hello,
I wanted to thank you on behalf of all atheists who are in a relationship struggling because of religious differences. My husband is a strong Baptist and is not as, shall we say, supportive or open-minded as you are with your husband. While we are in love with each other after 7 years and three kids, it is very difficult to always be the minority and always be "wrong." I hope that you two can remain to respect one another and give a good example for a real love.
Hi,
I wanted to start this by saying in my recent marriage (Aug, '07), I am the atheist and my wife is the baptist with the very strong beliefs. I started searching the web to see if there were suggestions concerning raising children in a house where one believes and the other doesn't. I just wanted to comment and say that I am very happy to have found this blog (and your husband's) which shows me that even though other's speculate that our marriage won't last because of our different faiths, there are those who are having very successful and fulfilling lives. Even though I know it won't be easy ;) I guess that with some love, laughter, and patience we can all live happily together :)
Hey everyone!
Okay, so this is my problem:
I went to America to be an exchange stundent and I fell madly in love with one of the guys I met. The time went by way too fast and I had to go back to Germany but we decided to stay together because we already made a million plans about getting married and having babies and we have our whole life planed out. I love him and I always will and I know it is the same way with him.
Now we can just talk on the phone and today was one of the days where we talked about religion. He is a Christian and I'm an Atheist. We didn't have any probelms with that yet but he is doubting our whole future because he wants his kids to be Christian, too. I think that is okay but he doesn't see how that could ever work out. I don't know we he can't just accept me being an Atheist. I understand his problems, like having kinds who don't know what to think, but we truely love each other and I don't see how religion can be a good thing if it tears us apart. I just want to be with him and I am so scared we won't have a future because of our different belifes. I don't know if anyone is goint to take this serously because I am probably the youngest one in this blog and I'm "just an Atheist" but I really want to know if there is anything that could help in our situation.
I hope somebody is going to answer because I am desperate.
Kati
Megan,
I'd like to talk with you offline if you are open? My husband and I were in full time ministry together and he not only left the ministry but now is a believer in atheism - it's been 5 years now. We have 2 children. I can relate to most of the problems you listed but am wodering what the outcome was. I'm assuming he reengaged his faith at some point? I'd love to hear your "another story for another day" since I'm living it. I respect and love my husband, but it's been a very hard road in moving on together.
WOW!! Your situation is so parallel to my own. I am married to an amazing man who has gone from fundamentalist,Southern Baptist, youth pastor, to agnostic/atheist.
For me, I see God removing him from a very very warped version of faith that his higher level of intellect would never be able to accept. Because I don't feel the religion is a prerequisite for morality, this turn in his journey of life really isn't too much of an issue for me. Yes, I worry about his eternal destiny, but sometimes I think that is because of the misuse of God's word that has us living in fear. I'm not at all the typical Christian and don't even believe that there will be a hell. (I won't get into the long rant as to why)
While we are living in complete harmony with his choice, there is I'm afraid repercussions that could destroy us. His family and friends have launched an all out crusade to "win him back" and the strain it is having on us is hard! They have even told him that his decision is more difficult for them than if they had received a phone call saying he was dead! His father (a Southern Baptist preacher) has even told him that his children will suffer from his decision!!
The author, Brian McLaren nails it on the head pretty well when he says that its not an atheist who turns a Christian away but rather a Christian exemplifying a poor version of the faith.
I guess my question is, have you dealt with this from family or friends?
I am trying so hard to keep my mouth shut and let him deal with it, but its getting hard!!
This is a really old post which is unexpectedly still generating comments which I sometimes forget to respond to! People are welcome to email with me about this at coriwielenga(at)hotmail(dot)com.
If Kati from Germany ever visits here again - please send me an email to let me know how things are going with that US boyfriend. We certainly take everyone seriously regardless of their age!
MariFreem, thanks for all you've shared here. We've been really fortunate in having supportive friends and family. My dad is a pastor and even he was very understanding. I think what helped a lot was for them to see the process Kevin (my atrheist-husband) was going through as he lost his faith and contines to grapple with his atheism.
If Kevin has been arrogant or blase about it all, or in any way aggressive-defensive, I think it would have been much harder. He also avoids getting into arguments about it at all cost.
I really can understand (as can you, probably) the desire of friends and family to 'win your husband back' - behind that is so much love and concern. Would it help if he very gently and vulernably shared his journey out of faith (from a personal/heart perspective, not a 'here are the rational reasons why' perspective) and then explained to them that he needed space to work things out for himself?
Many people have been amazed to hear Kevin's really moving personal journey out of faith as Christians often assume that people leave the faith for shallow or arrogant reasons. When he, with emotion and sincerity, shares how hard it has been for him and how he still has times where he longs for God it really touches people beyond the arguments and defensive positions.
It's a hard situation to be in - I guess there is so much hurt, dissapointment, and fear involved. We need so much patience and compassion! Please keep us updated on your journey, MariFreem!
Thank you for sharing your story.
I am a firm believer who is dating an atheist, and I have found that the most difficulty I have had is with other people's opinions. Honestly, I have more open and stimulating conversations about religion with my atheist boyfriend than with many Christians I know. It has obviously been hard for us, but it has always been something we have been open and honest with each other about. We do not avoid the issue and we do not disrespect each others opinions. While thinking about the future has been difficult, knowing that others in similar situations have found a way to make it work gives me hope.
Thank you again.
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